Friday, April 04, 2014

"Subjective dreams and visions"


I'm going to comment on this post:
Let me say at the outset that I have no informed opinion to offer on these reports. It's not something I've investigated. Rather, I'm discussing this as a matter of principle.
I thought it covered the important reasons why I do not believe Jesus is coming to Muslims in dreams and visions which in turn bring the Muslims to salvation. The primary reason being that the the Bible is clear that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17), and the only way a person can hear is by the means of preaching.
If that's his primary reason, then that exposes a basic tension in the cessationist position. You see, cessationists don't really believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, their protestations notwithstanding. Although cessationists routinely accuse charismatics of effectively denying the sufficiency of Scripture (and many charismatics are, indeed, guilty as charged), a key plank of the cessationist position is the role of sign-gifts. Cessationists don't think the apostolic kergyma was sufficient. They classify NT miracles and charismata as sign-gifts. At least originally, the Gospel had to be accompanied or preceded by miraculous sign-gifts to credential the messenger as a genuine spokesman for God. 
Ironically, then, the cessationist argument parallels the claim that Jesus sometimes appears to Muslims to make them receptive to missionaries. Dreams and visions of Jesus would function as sign-gifts which give Christian missionaries an opening to evangelize Muslims. 
A number of people point to Cornelius in Acts 10 as an example as someone stirred to consider Jesus by the means of a vision or dream, but Cornelius was a special case that God used to affirm the salvation of gentiles to the Jewish leaders. 
i) Is Cornelius a special case? Although he's emblematic of God affirming the salvation of gentiles to Jewish leaders, his significance in that respect is primarily symbolic. He's not a pivotal or strategic figure like Abraham, St. Paul, or Constantine. The conversion of Cornelius doesn't have much direct impact on gentiles in general. 
ii) In the Book of Acts, this is not an isolated event. Acts has many dreams and visions. And that's not coincidental. Rather, that illustrates the outworking of the programatic promise in Acts 2:17,39.
First, does God only give dreams and visions to Muslims? Or do Hindus and Buddhists or other members of world religions have similar dreams that bring them to Jesus? Maybe they do, but I am unaware of their stories.
Notice that Fred is resorting to an argument from experience. 
The ordained means by which God has established the spread of the Gospel is through preaching, and that was the historic pattern of evangelism throughout the book of Acts.
i) Actually, the pattern of evangelism throughout the book of Acts combines Gospel preaching with dreams, visions, and miracles. 
ii) We also need to distinguish between preparatory dreams/visions and dreams/visions which would be a substitute for evangelism. 
Why the need to resort to subjective dreams and visions?
Why does Fred keep using the adjective "subjective"? Both the OT and the NT are replete with dreams and visions. Is there something defective about that medium because it's "subjective"? 
Honestly, I believe this is all another clear example of the troubling doctrine I see with charismatic theology. It denudes the authority of God’s written word in the matters of any subject, let alone evangelism. Anything Scripture would seek to address from a divine perspective becomes essentially pointless and non-applicable to a Christian’s life and practice.  Because what ever the Word of God may speak to authoritatively is authoritative UNTIL a dream/vision/experience happens along that trumps what God has said thus canceling what little authority the Word allegedly had.
i) Why begin with charismatic theology rather than the reports? 
iI) Does Fred apply that same reasoning to dreams and visions in Acts? Or dreams in Matthew? Or dreams in Genesis? 
It's a problem when MacArthurites presume to be more Scriptural than Scripture itself. 

3 comments:

  1. Fred reminds me of John in Mark 9:38-40.

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  2. I responded at Hip&Thigh as regards the following and will also repost some of my comments here with a few changes. It might be of interest to you. If there is anything wrong with what I say or if I am in error pls do correct me. Iron sharpens iron.

    > “First, does God only give dreams and visions to Muslims? Or do Hindus and Buddhists or other members of world religions have similar dreams that bring them to Jesus? Maybe they do, but I am unaware of their stories. I briefly noted this point in my original article, but it seems that the dream and vision phenomena is only taking place among Muslims, and many times among Iranian, Shiah Muslims.”

    ~ What is rife in India in particular among Hindu cultures is that a very large number of people who come to Christ do so on account of a miraculous healing or some kind of exorcism. Numerous stories abound about someone, Hindu or a Buddhist who was desperately ill – on their deathbed and they went from doctor to doctor – pujari to pujari ( = temple priest) and nothing worked. Finally someone suggested going to a Christian pastor for prayer and they did and… healing resulted. The family then converts to Christianity. Similar stories abound with regard to demonic activity. Now there are stories about people being prepared for the Gospel via dreams and visions but there are less common than when compared to healings/exorcisms which are VERY common. My own aunt, coudn't sleep properly because she said that during her sleep demons kept disturbing her. They tried everything. Nothing worked. Finally they went to a Christian pastor. He prayed. The problems ceased. She and her daughters all became Christians. Her husband although he did not convert - he took all the family idols and dumped them in the trash. There is hope!

    So what I want to say is this: the apostle Paul talks about being all things to all people in 1 Corinthians 9. This passage is food for thought as regards how we contexualize when we do mission or when we evangelize.

    ~~> I think that what is going on is God contextualizing so to speak. In Indian Hindu cultures God uses miraculous healings and exorcisms quite often. In Muslim cultures – where dreams occupy a central feature of Islamic cultural thought - God works via dreams quite often. God knows how to contextualize in ways that we do not. I think that God prepares people for a real-life encounter with the Gospel via a missionary or the Bible through dreams/visions. The stories simply abound.

    So I think something related to 1 Corinthians 9 is what is taking place.

    Thanks and press on brothers!
    ~ Raj

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